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	<title>Comments on: A question for programmers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/</link>
	<description>Karin Dalziel</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 05:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mark Dennehy</title>
		<link>http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/#comment-40364</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Dennehy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 01:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nirak.net/?p=290#comment-40364</guid>
		<description>What qualifications might be listed in a job ad? Try none. Probably the best lesson on job ads might be to ignore completely what they say the company wants and just get a contact point from them and then to pursue that contact point for the real details. In the past few weeks, while locating my current role, I've seen more dross in job ads than I thought possible. And the mistakes were not subtle either - they were very, very basic and very, very avoidable:

http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/tips-for-hiring-new-engineers/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What qualifications might be listed in a job ad? Try none. Probably the best lesson on job ads might be to ignore completely what they say the company wants and just get a contact point from them and then to pursue that contact point for the real details. In the past few weeks, while locating my current role, I&#8217;ve seen more dross in job ads than I thought possible. And the mistakes were not subtle either - they were very, very basic and very, very avoidable:</p>
<p><a href="http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/tips-for-hiring-new-engineers/" rel="nofollow">http://stochasticgeometry.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/tips-for-hiring-new-engineers/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Brumfield</title>
		<link>http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/#comment-39435</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Brumfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nirak.net/?p=290#comment-39435</guid>
		<description>I have no idea what a system manager is, so my response may be irrelevant, but you asked for developers to respond...

I've been a developer in software companies for a dozen years now, and have interviewed more than a hundred candidates in the last five years.  I can't imagine hiring a candidate who was mediocre in other ways (negative personality, unenthusiastic, poor design skills, not bright enough -- choose one) but who had an excellent command of the language.  I don't mean "in comparison with an otherwise enthusiastic candidate who didn't know language X" -- we'd rather leave the position empty.

Candidates at my employer pass through 6-7 group and one-on-one interviews.  Only two of those are language-specific -- one in Java, one in SQL.  Both I (the SQL interviewer) and the Java interviewer have recommended we hire candidates who only scored 1 or 2 out of 5 on knowledge of the respective languages.  The only way we'd nix a candidate who was strong on the non-language interviews is if they knew neither Java, nor SQL, nor web programming.  A particular language is simply the easiest thing about software development to learn.

Of course it's useful to have a language guru around, if your team is big enough.  But you probably only need one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no idea what a system manager is, so my response may be irrelevant, but you asked for developers to respond&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been a developer in software companies for a dozen years now, and have interviewed more than a hundred candidates in the last five years.  I can&#8217;t imagine hiring a candidate who was mediocre in other ways (negative personality, unenthusiastic, poor design skills, not bright enough &#8212; choose one) but who had an excellent command of the language.  I don&#8217;t mean &#8220;in comparison with an otherwise enthusiastic candidate who didn&#8217;t know language X&#8221; &#8212; we&#8217;d rather leave the position empty.</p>
<p>Candidates at my employer pass through 6-7 group and one-on-one interviews.  Only two of those are language-specific &#8212; one in Java, one in <acronym title="Structured Query Language">SQL</acronym>.  Both I (the <acronym title="Structured Query Language">SQL</acronym> interviewer) and the Java interviewer have recommended we hire candidates who only scored 1 or 2 out of 5 on knowledge of the respective languages.  The only way we&#8217;d nix a candidate who was strong on the non-language interviews is if they knew neither Java, nor <acronym title="Structured Query Language">SQL</acronym>, nor web programming.  A particular language is simply the easiest thing about software development to learn.</p>
<p>Of course it&#8217;s useful to have a language guru around, if your team is big enough.  But you probably only need one.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/#comment-39233</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nirak.net/?p=290#comment-39233</guid>
		<description>"It's also worth &lt;strong&gt;noting&lt;/strong&gt; that projects often dictate choice of language."

Typos are bad enough. Typos that change the meaning of an entire paragraph are terrible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s also worth <strong>noting</strong> that projects often dictate choice of language.&#8221;</p>
<p>Typos are bad enough. Typos that change the meaning of an entire paragraph are terrible.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/#comment-39230</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nirak.net/?p=290#comment-39230</guid>
		<description>Are you looking for a programmer or a system administrator? Different, though overlapping, skill sets.

It's worth noting that that language is a minor aspect of programming. A good programmer can pick up languages relatively easily. Better to try to measure whether programmers are good at programming, than the number of languages programmers "know".

It's also worth nothing that projects often dictate choice of language. If you are starting a software project from scratch, a blank screen, with a target language in mind, you will want to find a programmer with a particular specialty in that language. (Though you might ask yourself why you have gone as far as specifying a language before consulting a professional.) If you have a corpus of code you are modifying or extending, a specialist will be less critical, as your programmer will have plenty of examples to look at and learn from.

&lt;a href="http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/five-essential-phone-screen-questions" rel="nofollow"&gt;This blog entry&lt;/a&gt; from Amazon team leader Steve Yegge distills the technical interview nicely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you looking for a programmer or a system administrator? Different, though overlapping, skill sets.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that that language is a minor aspect of programming. A good programmer can pick up languages relatively easily. Better to try to measure whether programmers are good at programming, than the number of languages programmers &#8220;know&#8221;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth nothing that projects often dictate choice of language. If you are starting a software project from scratch, a blank screen, with a target language in mind, you will want to find a programmer with a particular specialty in that language. (Though you might ask yourself why you have gone as far as specifying a language before consulting a professional.) If you have a corpus of code you are modifying or extending, a specialist will be less critical, as your programmer will have plenty of examples to look at and learn from.</p>
<p><a href="http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/five-essential-phone-screen-questions" rel="nofollow">This blog entry</a> from Amazon team leader Steve Yegge distills the technical interview nicely.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/#comment-38908</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nirak.net/?p=290#comment-38908</guid>
		<description>Programming? Qualifications? You have to know something to be a Systems Manager? Someone forgot to tell me. I showed the remotest interest in technology and the next thing you know...

And mine is no podunk library. 17 branches, 30+ servers, 850+ workstations.

It is, in my opinion, WAY better to hire someone with insatiable curiosity and the ability and desire to learn, rather than try to find someone who already knows your technologies. 'Cause even if they claim to know them, they probably don't know them the way you use them in your environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Programming? Qualifications? You have to know something to be a Systems Manager? Someone forgot to tell me. I showed the remotest interest in technology and the next thing you know&#8230;</p>
<p>And mine is no podunk library. 17 branches, 30+ servers, 850+ workstations.</p>
<p>It is, in my opinion, WAY better to hire someone with insatiable curiosity and the ability and desire to learn, rather than try to find someone who already knows your technologies. &#8216;Cause even if they claim to know them, they probably don&#8217;t know them the way you use them in your environment.</p>
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		<title>By: Dorothea Salo</title>
		<link>http://www.nirak.net/2008/04/21/a-question-for-programmers/#comment-38881</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorothea Salo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nirak.net/?p=290#comment-38881</guid>
		<description>Not a programmer, just a librarian who occasionally codes...

I will learn a new programming language if there's an existing project I need to work on. Python is the language I cut my teeth on, and if I have to code something from scratch it's still what I use, but when I started as a DSpace monkey, I perforce learned JSP and (some) Java, and now that Manakin's out of the gates, I've been reacquainting myself with XSLT. I can sorta read PHP owing to monkeying around with Open Journal Systems.

Oh, and SQL. I can't think of many programmer-types who don't need at least a LITTLE SQL.

I don't know where your fellow student read that more than one or two languages is unrealistic, but it doesn't square with anything I've heard from my programmer friends, never mind my own experience. I'd mark that down as "bogus" and move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a programmer, just a librarian who occasionally codes&#8230;</p>
<p>I will learn a new programming language if there&#8217;s an existing project I need to work on. Python is the language I cut my teeth on, and if I have to code something from scratch it&#8217;s still what I use, but when I started as a DSpace monkey, I perforce learned JSP and (some) Java, and now that Manakin&#8217;s out of the gates, I&#8217;ve been reacquainting myself with <acronym title="eXtensible Stylesheet Language Transformations">XSLT</acronym>. I can sorta read <acronym title="Pre-Hypertext Processing">PHP</acronym> owing to monkeying around with Open Journal Systems.</p>
<p>Oh, and <acronym title="Structured Query Language">SQL</acronym>. I can&#8217;t think of many programmer-types who don&#8217;t need at least a LITTLE <acronym title="Structured Query Language">SQL</acronym>.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where your fellow student read that more than one or two languages is unrealistic, but it doesn&#8217;t square with anything I&#8217;ve heard from my programmer friends, never mind my own experience. I&#8217;d mark that down as &#8220;bogus&#8221; and move on.</p>
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